Well welcome to a rainy day but still a great game and for the next three hours I think we're going to be talking about some very interesting subjects. Beginning with the question to spank or not Hispanic. In our next hour however were going to be talking with the heads of two of the police unions about why they feel so strongly in are going to the civil service commission. To get raises for policeman. Our third hour not to be missed. The great Jason bear -- wonderful journalist. Outstanding author. Last night on Nightline. Co produced. On -- ninety -- incredible. Incredible look at what the Catholic Church is facing. And so we're going to have him for the third hour -- We begin with it is a subject that continues to be debated to spank or not to spank your children. We're used banked how did affect you as a child and as an adult. There are those who believe that there are more effective ways to punish and there are those who believe spanking is the most effective method. Perhaps -- begins with how you define spanking. Is that a pop on the behind -- serious hit on the and maybe with a belt. Or is it even a slap in the face. We're gonna talk about this and here to lead the way our members of our wonderful. Parents group who help us with so many topics. Trish Kaufman is a mother of two. Stacy LeBlanc executive director of the new children at the center. Jonny Evans assistant director of the parenting center single mom with two girls co parenting with her ex husband. Once -- -- is also a mother and is a parent educator at the parenting center at Children's Hospital. Scott salzman. Mary with one dollar. Doctor Cathy Taylor is an associate professor -- school of public health. And an author of the study of corporal punishment. And the subsequent risk of children's aggressive behavior. And by phone we're joined by Phoebe Thompson who is a former journalist with the BBC. And a mother of twin girls and a believer in spanking this is the biggest crowd ever. I'm I'm I'm so touched that everybody is here and I think it's because we all have very strong opinions one way of it's going to be very fast. And I'm going to ask listening. Public out -- not to hesitate to call 260170. But let's let's sort of lay the ground work here and let's start with. How we define spank. First. Everybody jump. Spanking I think of corporal punishment. -- and -- studies I think. Punishment where. And an adult or parent hits its banks or taxes physically touch as the child. Okay -- is that the all of us agree with I think an object is different but that's just in my mind OK but I'm trying I guess I'm trying to do is separate what was obviously an over the we're not talking about not talking about ranked punt interestingly there there are definition legal definitions of what. Constitutes abuse I think it's being leaving a mark or being hit anywhere other than backside -- the hand. I mean generally causing injury. Mean that you would be if I'm glad it's -- its definition is exactly what you mean he -- -- that is that I think. Everyone has had very different definition. I think that what it in the common definition it is with an open hand on -- by -- Two kinds injury that not he. And -- to -- -- not injured exact opposite pain that not injury. That I think it's that her own definition that there is there's a wide range think of what people considers thinking. I'm gonna start with you doctor Cathy Taylor because she authored the study on corporal punishment and and what were your findings. The basic findings where that children that where it's banked. More than twice in the past month and eighties where children that -- three years held at the time that we sent the spanking. By the age of five. Had higher risk of being aggressive and acting aggressively. And it was really important about this particular because they're actually now a designated studies that have shown this association between corporal punishment and later. More aggressive behavior but there are few things that need this particular steady week one is that. A lot of people argue that -- Use this association because children that are already acting out more aggressively are more likely to get here are more likely -- -- And while that's true in a steady we controlled -- And we found that even if he had those children who were acting aggressively. Were more likely ahead. He began only he'd been more aggressive. That was that was keep hanging we often controlled person I've been more Syrians types. Aggression that -- keys against their children says things -- actually craft at -- Anthony's. We controlled as silly now that there's not -- mixing up of corporal punishment and we're seeing geared -- and stay. So those are a couple of they keep things we controlled for about a money thing is that my house account for the kids being. The provocation. For spanking children here in this particular study in the study they didn't ask the parents that they just -- the parents whether or not. They'd be an act says that's a great question. We don't know that he's -- To our our panel here and I'm going to get to our wonderful people on the phone the -- panel hear your thoughts Trish. Spanking my sponsor I'm I'm totally against it I don't think it's necessary never had to do with my children I think. As parents are -- to protect nurture our children here five times bigger than child you act aggressively to this child. -- they can feel safe with. I can now. OK you did punishing KG just instinct I discipline that limits and I have never. Well same here as a professional we're sort of that the parenting center. We feel a responsibility to make sure that parents learn ways to help their children behave better starting very young but even if a parent comes to us. -- with an eight or nine year old in -- already spanking they still need better ways to come about. Good behavior and teaching them values and lessons that they wanna teach and learn what we find its banking doesn't work. As a parent it's similar to what -- was saying. I knew and academically I gas and instinctively that the tool I needed was a close relationship with those children and I needed them to make decisions. Based on what was good and right and the only way for them to decide what's good and right is through my eyes I'm responsible for helping them learn that. So I felt like any sort of harsh discipline. Or punishment. Or spanking was going to put -- in between them and I and I and I would no longer be the go to. Source for them so it's. I was modeling I mean if you are trying to tell your children to behave a certain way and you're out of control which I'm sort of assuming when you get to that point where you want to hit your child. Your little country. But it doesn't matter but if you. The point being that you want sent down to model your behavior so if you're behaviors or something that you don't wanna see in them I eat them hitting somebody else I think you should be -- your children often. I just want to add -- and I agree with everything everywhere have a -- and that you know essentially this fits wind. Why we might fees and the findings that we do that if parents are modeling. That it's OK to hit even if what they're trying to do is get their children not to act out there actually modeling and acting out behavior. Tend to agree with that off my daughter who's nine now there have been many times that we here at wit's end. And she sees -- leave the room. Take a deep breath and leave the room. And then come back in the room and which. We've we've never gotten to the point. There's there's this there's a chance of physical danger that that's just months away -- I'd believe. As I was raised. We've I was saying it was instinct much effect can probably count them. Both hands how many times in my whole life was and we always knew when it was coming your dad is coming. I were going into the bedroom and your gonna -- him now and -- and we'll be OK there it is now you're just sit here and think about that in this town and come back. Did not say. I got here okay. And you know I mean there's got to be some some curve that's associated with while davis'. This is that happen and I don't think it destroyed my relationship with my parents because there were ten times in my life. On the about it. I do remember my mom Jason's brother. -- with the ping pong game catch him. I -- people who might lose but it didn't make it aggressively it didn't didn't make me aggressiveness and I think. What you did really good because I think actually. I used to say mommy needs a time music that I don't get my regroup. But I think that disconnect with young children they sense that they don't like it they wanna feel connected to you. So just by walking out -- -- I'm just another parent not an authority but I think. That. That has some importance and relevance and the process of setting limits of their children she takes herself out of the -- them to. Well. It's -- right. Okay we're gonna take a break we're gonna get Phoebe on the line police a believer in spanking so stay with this as we talk about to spank or not to -- I'm Angela under the that you will. Well we're talking about the debate up to spank or not to spank. We've got a roomful of people -- strong opinions basically against it but also on the phone we have -- Thompson. And Phoebe you're a former journalist with the BBC and the mother of twin girls and you say spanking is okay. You know. Yeah. You know -- all about. Actual. The wrong way. You know. -- -- Question. You know it. He. -- high -- not. It was. You read a lot. It. They didn't carry much. Chat. -- -- -- You know the way. To stop you know short and then on the day I see. You know. A couple people. At the and I'll. Yeah. -- you make a comment that's. Outlawing spanking almost takes away the right to discipline. Hey I am. It on our. They entry to -- I. You know. Or are. And how. There she thought -- like much. Each other. Our ticket. You know the -- But if if the spanking. Is justice is a tool to -- teaching or four. Reprimand. If your able to offer. The parent the parent group a different tools that they find equally as or more effective with that non. Would that not offered him something that they can continue to work with enough -- -- -- being taken away I mean I was right that's clear I was certainly one that was spinning desert town allotment. And I don't feel like I -- damaged person because of that however I do believe as -- paired today. But that's not -- that's not what I want to model for much -- wondered to feel that some that the wave of the evening in the world. Right. A practice that -- Actually. You know it. All on. You know what. Or is. It. And any -- com. But you know sadly -- I wish everybody could be in the presence of all of these people who work in this world of of helping parents be better parents. With an awful lot of people who say well I don't spank but they may yelled at their kids so badly. It in this so humiliating and and I see it excellent -- that bidders. Then pop on the behind can be definitely. So. Yes and a perfect world we would all have these. Skills. Of a better parenting. And and how to affect the kid the least in the long run. But in reality what were facing our people under a lot of stress. But at the same time you have people that. The people lose it I mean in the world have lots of things that affect Q and so you were going to at some point lose it. And so for me the choice of losing it by yelling and then apologizing yelling and then leaving -- Either verses hitting and then having to deal with that if I were to make that choice words out and certainly would continue to make the choice to Yale and then trying to deal with that. You can't always be the perfect -- can always be the perfect child you can't always be the perfect anything so you've read what you have to make choices about what you can do when you know. -- and and what is your expression this. Right -- what are you using to actually teach him one of the and experts that we often referred to that the parent in center about discipline and banking says. And I don't know happy -- feels that this but it says that. A lot of people don't feel like they were raised to be who they are because they were spank but they feel like they were raised to be who I am art either. In spite of being steak or and they respect so it's not necessarily the -- that made them. Who they are. And so parents are right they're gonna make mistakes and hopefully they're not grueling and nobody gets hurt in the long term I don't -- what else are they doing to build a relationship. And to raise their child with discipline and valleys and I just wonder Phoebe you have the twin daughters how old thing. I am actually -- in and sixteen -- -- -- can. Keep our -- did you spank them. You know I did. It once and I did. What it on the anchor. Is actually. I found the experience and comfortable partly because -- get an education way an actor and an -- You know I think lashed out again I would guilty of you know behavior that I can and that instance. Having that I had to. You know headmistress issue that my -- in England who's you know very Dan was caged rat. Children and a -- when I was growing up and you know. In that respect for the program -- -- -- -- resentment toward parent she. Still good -- including you know having. Acting -- -- -- -- but yeah every day and I. I say I'm very particular -- -- right in this. Anti trust her concede -- -- -- addressed her concerns about state intervention either. Like thirty countries maybe not -- -- they've already sick and had a case. How does Macedonia. It started with Sweden hanging Qaeda lead -- there is and you -- in the -- Africa and New Zealand as well as not to hear what they have canceled -- that they have universal ban on carpal tunnels. Which essentially means that it's not and KT UT's. Corporal punishment even in the -- But I mean this is to change you and it's not about. The focus is not enforcement every package it's a very quickly that it's. If we think about it the way and -- public to think about the way we think of the race smoking -- and have more right. He had saying you can't smoke in a hospital or an arrest them if not he appointed me to go out and arrest people right ports put people in art and people. Would give even that fits that is no longer okay because it's harmful. Because it's not doing any good it's their people that the way to send that message and it's heating system online. -- But I can hear the parents out there saying you know what that's. The kids in charge -- that's what I can address with her with her concerns even though I think it's a good idea on many levels. They were there's -- an excuse me a resurgence of people wanting to have that. Ban removed because they are and fear that their children. Will press charges against them and use that as leverage when they tried to supplements with their children. You know I guess that they're setting limits in the correct way. Then you know that's one thing but with Phoebe she had one moment where she just lost it which every parent I the has experienced those feelings. And to. So you would hate to see someone like RBB here going to prison right. Obama and senate that definitely happening. Here and I am -- I. -- -- -- Top and -- Spanking. And which is that. Each and please. -- Tool. That. -- -- -- The common and. Can do I want everyone to stay with -- and all of our listeners now leisure time to call if you have any thoughts on this 2601 point seven -- But now we're gonna go to the newsroom and Chris Miller. Well we are talking about the issue of spanking and I guess we could talk forever and it it's but it is it's a fascinating subject and one thing -- him I'm talking to some experts here but I thought it was very interesting. But in the I think have lost -- in the sixties. Something like 86% of people said they agreed with spanking. And in 2004. It was down to 71% so we're shifting in our thinking and yet still the majority of of Americans anyway. Believe that spanking is okay let's take a quick caller pace for McComb. Yes are -- doing very good I'm great -- comment or question was kind of comparing it to. When I was a coach some kids responded to -- getting open air -- and yelling. And other other kids that would totally. Put government -- and it would need to wanna go back into the game. So my comment or question goes to. A particular type of child one might be very -- our troops to. Being bag in another it might sentiment completely different direction. Every eat there any of a panel or studies take that into consideration. Thank you -- said is a wonderful question. Anybody wanna comment on that. Well -- I think it's certainly true that children respond to different things and that you may get a much more drastic withdrawal or response from one child. Thing you do from another so I agree. I'm but I don't think you're gonna find. Many examples of children to learn to behave better. And because they were hit so -- I thought I agree that it could certainly be worse for some children and for others. Local and national magazine and that you know I'm kind of shifting here and again thank you very much that -- -- always calling and I can't tell you the times that people of my generation. We've been in public and we see a kid being really obnoxious. And. And -- and often rude to the parents. And to -- person my friends will say. If that were my kid and that would not happen because that -- get a spanking. I mean to a person it's a universal thought that there are not being disciplined. I think that there's this sense that parents feel sometimes they have to make a choice between spanking and being a permissive parent. And I wanna say I think that's a false choice that I think that there are many tools you can use as a parent to be an effective disciplinarian that aren't. At the art physical. And a lot of times when you see people with kids who they're letting them do whatever they want whenever they want and not being respectful of other people's needs. Then that's ineffective limits that. And I think if you saw that a restaurant where is that he saw apparent pick a child up and remove him from that situation no I'm not gonna let you run around the restaurant and scream and disrupt everyone's. Dinner I'm that would look like effective does the planet wouldn't necessarily be spanking the problem with. With the spanking is that it definitely may of parents may feel like it's working in the short term because it may stop the misbehavior right then and there. But there is some indication that children who are frequently spank they just often get sneaky you know they they may be able to avoid the spanking. On they may away -- wet and whether or not they think the spanking from her at that for what they wanna do. On it doesn't necessarily grow that internal voice that we're trying to grow with parents that. I'm not gonna let you do this here's why I'm entering new view our it was a privilege or or some other technique on that might encourage that kind of thinking. Tom from -- Triangular. To get to weigh in on this issue. He talked about spanking because in and I think that aspect one's read in particular. And that's where it in my children -- they would do it this'll be you know a shock to some directive for instructors they have been -- Four. Rebellious at school where rebellious wars is sort of disrespectful. Orders -- boat tour Q school. Best. Punishment on those issues and other -- would expect will be an -- and current. Because that is deliberate thing but other things -- you know on some People's Bank it will bring it out and we -- do. -- would respect for those specific reasons specific of punishment in order to -- not to take those interactions. And and it didn't change their but yet here. It didn't change their behavior. Did yesterday afternoon very respected. There are follow all of my children dorm buddies -- expect -- -- side. We'll get it to those attraction a whole lot more is ward saw as an adult. I am glad for the way outraged. I appreciate this phone call a lot of I. I was had a conversation with my children again I've never spank children and I think it's imperative that parents starting from -- young. When chosen Mary and young that they instill in children that they will not tolerate being disrespect are being disrespectful of others. I do think there's many mechanism in which to do that. That doesn't have to be spanking. But I my children also say to me I'm so grateful for your parenting. And such a good job and you know I have I have to that it parenting center because they gave me so many tools in which to -- which didn't make me have to resort. To being -- and I don't mean violent. Right choosing your child -- -- but really it's interesting that both sets of kits. Tom's children and your children thinking. Isn't that great on that happy note we're gonna take another break and nobody stay with -- and -- this call 260187. We are talking about the issue of spanking and is at the route to go doesn't make kids more aggressive or there better ways to discipline your kids. We also have Stacy -- who has been so kind and patient sitting here. The executive director of the new -- children's advocacy center and -- just your thoughts on what you've been hearing. So much great -- -- For positive discipline coming from the parent center and have an apparent slip. Wonderful experience says it's so wonderful to -- My only comment would be district went -- said it's a one incident from amber and eating our children. -- was winning in time where maybe should talk a little bit of anger and unfortunately. What we see year in our program at Children's Hospital where at least their kids had been used. It's not that this -- intending to harm actual track in the that different. Ruled illegal entry and they won that you know little cottage. Where we provide medical examination of these children in armed and help with different seeking intervening with these prosecutions. But weak spot is that parents and even realized if they pulled the research it's pretty clear that's spanking race -- the it's a physical B is actively time. And -- they. They went and optic it raises the -- -- nine time. Did you like her and other parents say a -- say he -- that some parents. You know they unity can use a different tool but it spanking as a tool that you -- going to -- its utility -- only going to an actress award. A lot of parents are going to that tool when -- most angry. And they'll definitely. Intricate children being mean to discipline and but importantly they want -- -- -- program and -- look into their eyes and these are apparently won a -- on them to you that we -- their children taken away from them but they can't into their candidates and they regret it. And I just wish more parents need fact that Papelbon to appear. Oh my gosh. -- let's talk about alternatives. Let's talk about and we only have a few minutes but I think that's important we're talking about don't spank what can you do. Well I think the first thing to keep in mind as parents which is exactly what -- Stacy was saying is that when. You have to have some self awareness of how your feeling and and even what your responding to that feeling of lack of control of that feeling. Oh my gosh my child is always going to be this way or they're going to be backed candidate when you feel yourself going there. He didn't know that you have resource well first I have to be able that lectures and congress and put yourself in time -- get out of the situation. Always a ticket teach a lot of the -- classes and now is tell that. And the parents you know if you're having. I've conflict -- problem with your child chances are it's gonna happen again and if that doesn't greats are just back off from it and don't be -- that at all if you if you can't. And that second step is. Call all the parenting center college friend call your parents call somebody whose parenting. You respect and and through some ideas -- London and think of some things that you can do you know and I'm just thinking about what does Scott was saying what what one of the callers said. -- you know you knew when you're gonna get spanked because your mother seven your father gets home and so it was a very thought out vision. She also says she she told us that her pediatrician told her you'd never ever hear it in anger and anger -- you count to ten. Before you do anything. But the point is you play it was it was a set you broke the rules that the other man who called. I didn't -- just arbitrarily it was for various specific reasons you know an ethical conduct in new you're gonna get spank. To me that's almost different then. In the heat of the moment and the kid is being. Obnoxious and and really hitting. Wouldn't it be better to avoid it at all costs well he and mrs. Smith in -- the techniques that I learned from the pairings there. And it's positive reinforcement like if I was gonna take the children when they're young. Somewhere and day. I knew they would have a hard time transitioning out of that environment I would say ahead at all. -- letting you know we're gonna need to leave them block a couple of times. I'm gonna be so proud if you win. You listen to me and you come with me now if you don't come -- asking to. That will be your choice but it won't be a good choice and this will be whatever it is that I was gonna do. But I think using these techniques and meet the parents -- -- did provide me. With an understanding of their brain level capacity of understanding when I'm saying but also. Great techniques. To use to avoid having to get to that point we still angry. And I think easily -- -- camp attending -- -- the time and you can't think of something else today and the American people who can't at that moment if the kids hanging off the ceiling right yeah academy adverse safety first and you have to address whatever issues are and hear him coming up this. Does it add anything about what you wanted to -- an anti -- with particularly with younger kids we have to get capital telling. Them that day that. We don't want to do you are doing. If you put an image in their head of what you want them to -- on the floor. On -- you're more likely to get they've actually spending more likely to get compliance over the long and there is a certain amount of repetition involved and you pray ministers mentioned -- praise them when you see. Them specifically do mean at least an approximation of what you want them to do so by by having -- -- actions with pat. Overtime their behavior does because ultimately they do want to please you destroy that relationship and they don't care to our author of the study. When you mention of three girls and they found that the more than they did become aggressive. Was that throughout their life or just in in their continuing growing up. Great question. In Philly in this particular study I just let it when they work Friday but -- then. Multiple pilot studies that seem -- that poly and kids tonight and even later. The results -- on the same. Studies. That have lucky -- even older and check out the relationship between being hit as a child and adult behaviors at the same kind of its initiation -- You know again we're just talking about. The fact that -- -- reduces your risk. That as you've heard from a these wonderful parent he expressed to fear than necessary to impose that indicates because there's so many wonderful alternative there's so many other ways and I just wanted to mention that because we couldn't possibly cover obvious alternatives in this this short tying that. The American academy of pediatrics has they're really great website that the wonderful resource for parents and that provides -- really specific options produce a plan. It's called healthy children got toward. He -- and again I the American academy of pediatrics and if parents look at the communication discipline section there's a whole. -- an example of that I'll -- it had to discipline. Why speaking of harmful -- and of course he can often speak directly your pediatrician to talk about in specific child in their issues. And there isn't that it was parenting center yet. Let me tell you all the best. I've seen in my heart -- -- relax none of the city and you'll hear we're gonna get back on another subject but I I do one thing Trish -- your. -- and you keep saying you're not an expert you raised two great kids you're an expert. Stacy LeBlanc thank you executive director -- children's advocacy center -- Evans assistant director at the parenting center. Lisa Phillips a mother of two and a parent educator it's parenting center Scott Saltzman. You do it married raising them beautiful daughter. Doctor Cathy Taylor truly. Your your study of I'm so thrilled you all meaning for the first time which he knew all about her study. Thank you Tulane university and a we hope you do further studies and come back and we've got to think. We have got to -- feet. She's no longer with us on the phone and I'm telling you what a great experience and how gutsy to be the only one out there -- -- -- but it it truly truly is. A subject that does need to discuss and I loved your. Analogy of of that they're inspecting the majority of people today continued to spank their kids hopefully not hurt them but spank them. But perhaps as it's going down in number and we look at things differently in and get educational better the continued. And you'll still have disciplined team which way you want good human beings. Stay with us everyone I'll be right back. I loved our talk on spanking -- the people who were sitting in this room who -- It's something we need to discuss them but my. Really loved if you need help if you wanna look at alternatives to spanking healthy children dot org. Go to the communication and discipline section of it and they give you alternatives. But again an important discussion and another one coming up we have. Eric Kessler who's the attorney for the police association of New Orleans. And not Raymond Burkhardt who is the attorney for the fraternal order of police. And the bottom line is the police need more money indeed bigger salaries they've lost a lot of money in their detail work. They were underpaid going in. What can be done so we're going to be talking to two these two gentlemen for the next hour and then after that. Jason Berry who -- as many of you know has authored several books. On not what's happening in the Catholic church and we're going to be talking about -- to stay with us in the meantime let's go to the newsroom. And Chris Miller.