About an hour and a half yesterday talking about the attempted murder in Waukesha Wisconsin. And others hold slender man. Concept. Internet. Character that doesn't really exist that. Began as we understand that the with a drawing on that somebody put on the Internet then fiction. And fiction -- -- detail forward which eventually led to these. 212 year -- apparently to lose. Planned for months set up a third twelve year old obviously over the Integra in the woods -- ever nineteen times with every intent of killing her. I heard a lot of parents talking about it yesterday wherever I wind and we thought we pursue this morning. The Texans and less human grandkids group says of this slender man character that -- talked about for months. Thank goodness they moved on other interest I was so tired of hearing about slender man. And thank goodness and enact down on it Tom. The -- bomber giants right now professor of criminology and executive director of the center for criminology in public safety research. And Florida State talked about recidivism and juvenile zen once they break and is there any way to get him back on the right track morning professor. Thanks for taking the time -- You're well. Tell me I guess what the numbers show about eight juvenile offenders get their life back on -- back on track. The way they're treated senate tried as an adult at several of those. Well. There has been since the ninety's really began in the eighties when America sort of began due to. Relaxed itself rehabilitated efforts and and simply to get tough on crime whether juvenile crime brutal crime. So we saw in the eighties and nineties -- the slush to incarcerate and it's been term mass incarceration. With regard to juveniles specifically one of those get tough measures would stoop to transfer. Some serious violent. Juvenile offenders and the adult system and that seemed to peak in 1994. When there was little over thirteen thousand cases. In which and so the juvenile court proceedings the if you were remanded to the adult system means that. They were tried as adults they awaited their trial in jails and then were often subject to imprisonment. With the outcome of that. The statistics. We have are are not absolute in terms of how many states. Actually live on the east transferred to adult -- -- we do now. That it is it has been prevalent practice. And it's been sufficiently prevalence for the office of juvenile justice and delinquency prevention as well as the Center for Disease Control to try to look in to the outcomes that this practice in other words. Put it simple. Does -- work by taking the young offenders. Serious offenders that that. And putting him into the adult system is that better than the juvenile system. And they -- the evidence is is unequivocal and that evidences. It does more harm than good in Saddam it increases violence rather than the -- it does not deter crime. And I think what the list or -- one knows well that kind of defies reason why is that. And the point is is that forward these juvenile offenders to survive in prison. They have to adopt many of the inmate code. Behaviors to survive it and you don't you don't make it imprisoned by carrying books around in and indicating. Deference to various people survive in prison. By adopting -- -- -- -- you have to be careful you have to be tough you have to be willing to fight for things that are worse and so on and so forth. And it's again precipitate more violent behavior. And the beat it beat kind of adoption. Of a violent self concept that carries over Wendy's young offenders are released from prison. Was a catalyst for is sending more young people two grown person jail. Political Euro was it based in any kind of research. Where they thought that this would be more effective system of of punishing the kids straighten them out and set them on the right path. That that is an excellent question and and the answer to that is it was not based upon any evidence whatsoever. And I think what the listeners can and can recognize -- -- simplest terms that are raised children. I'm merely getting tough with your kids is not enough. Yes getting tough sometimes as has certain benefits. But if that is sure if you simply rely on the old adage you know spare the rod spoil the child. Bet that it's just simply insufficient. What we we embarked upon lies does this sound -- that getting tough on crime if you do the crime you can do that time period. And and that's fine if if you're not concerned -- -- if you're not concerned. With recidivism rates and so on and and the fact is. A crime cost this country it's estimated initial shock you're. You're your your list -- here. But crime is estimated every twelve months to cost this country as much as two. Not billions but two trillion dollars every twelve months this country. It when you look at the cost of crime adult crime juvenile crime when you look at the long term victimization costs two trillion a year. I don't think America can afford our strategies that don't have some sound evidence based. And and certainly transferring. A pupils to the adult system. Our has not demonstrated the work at all in fact it's counterproductive. And that's why this CDC recommended not to use that policy at all. And the CDC doesn't take these kinds of recommendations. You know -- lightly. Are they they looked at all the scientific evidence and concluded we should not be doing this because it's not helping public safety. And public safety and cost effectiveness have to be part of the equation won't start talking about policies to deal with. Pupil as what was adult center. Tests we have to break for traffic but if you can hold when you we come back -- like it's RT about. Then keeping juveniles in the juvenile system and what should we be doing with them because we have a noted defense attorney in this city Robert Jenkins said. Now part of the problem is that the youth prison and Orleans parish is go to use studies center and he says that's like. YMCA gone wrong where it's where people go back to meet each other hang out there's no. Punishment aspect of that so if -- in the juvenile system. Is it geared toward punishment to let him know their consequences or try to get them. Rehabilitated so that they don't wind up -- you're saying contributing to that two trillion dollar year crime problem. In the country six Sony to timely Traficant that would go to terror -- Tummy tuck had an interesting conversation -- Debbie WL with Tom slumber is professor of criminology and executive director of the center for criminology. And public policy research at four Florida State are professing you must have a pretty big business card SP five by eight. We dean of the college. I'm dean of the college as well and we're we're busy program but the question you're asking Tommy. Are directly relevant to what we do and regarding. The issue what can be done with juveniles. Let me make one point professor I may we had a an incident here with a a young man called -- named Marshall. Coulter who a homeowner shot in the head why any attempt hard to defend his property. That the kid was in the yard there is a big long story that we don't need to recap here. But after that happened. The young man was arrested for allegedly. Attending the burglarized another house in the same neighborhood after he healed enough from getting shot and had to do that and housing and -- a commercial break that. If there's any indication that punishment is not gonna keep some kids from -- and the same thing over and over I would think I shot in the head is about as serious as you could get. Well yes and and again try to understand though I mean you do have cases. That don't fit the general -- we have over two million people. Adults and juveniles incarcerated. And the bulk of those regardless of the crimes they committed some of most of those -- back among. So the question really becomes what is the best way that we can ensure the public's safety. Of our citizens and that's a major concern that we face and we've really tried to confront it for statement kind of searching policy work that we do. I can tell you one thing. Unequivocally clear. Is that what is the best thing to do with with most of our juvenile offenders because there's all week that cluster that small minority. That of -- out of the north. And again that group but clearly violent. Clearly repetitive violent offenders habitual violent offenders. That is the special category in which long term incarceration. Is absolutely necessary to ensure public safety. But just professors say you don't misunderstand that the they they kid that tend to had been in troubles since he was ten years old he gets shot in the head -- is attempting to burglarized a house. Allegedly because there enough conviction but yet he still doesn't stop -- -- I would think with him a different approach would be needed rather than punishment. This this is that is that -- situation here where you can have as we saw Santa Barbara mental disorders. You can have looked like -- things that contribute to this habitual nature that you have these have been actually violent repetitive offenders. But these habitually violent repetitive offenders are minority. Out of prison population. In which you can simply told the book out saying well we might as well you know sore hands up here we don't know what to do. The point is most of the offenders benefit. From. Fundamental things such as adult offenders vocational training juvenile offenders education education education. Most most all the people in whether it's wheezing in Mississippi or Alabama. Or out of California and Oregon and -- -- most juvenile offenders in that are incarcerated. Have failed in the public schools they failed. We have found we've been doing this search for twelve years involving. Hundreds of thousands of young adults. Again tracking them smaller and that residential facilities tracking their educational achievement or lack of educational achievement and then what happens during reentry. And that evidence is absolutely conclusive. Those used that experience disproportionate academic gains while incarcerated. Disproportionate returned to school with literally and it they returned to school stay in school their chances of re rest plot. In other words. Their self concept is different they feel they have a future they don't feel like the young man that got shot in the head that they have to -- the -- they can actually get a job. They can actually -- to take it they can do mathematics. Things that their holes self concept and their life chances and changed it's the turning point. And so I think the thing that the Bill -- -- Should at least recognize. May be there are some things that this country historically has not done about crime in their present. If you go to angle if you go to most prisons. You don't you don't see a lot of educational vocational training -- -- and spotted fragmented programs but the bottom line is they're not. Being embraced. We we are politicians have not embraced the role vocational training. In education. And if we really want to put a dent in crime if we really want public's safety this is what we must embrace that's what the evidence shows. Conclusively again and it. And again and again. Professor I can't thank you enough for coming on I would love you join us another time to talk about. You know in -- as far as a humanitarian effort as -- that safety effort this two trillion dollars a year about it. Cut that down by the cost of crime estimated name in the United States every year won't. Well it won't talk about the adult system we have time for that today but we come back and end of the against. Hi I would love to -- it's been a pleasure.